So, plenty of practical things came out of the venerable Bob's sessions.
I came in vaguely useful at one point because no-one else could figure out how to turn off the annoying noise, emanating from a speaker. Not Bob, obviously. anyway, here's some things about church growth:
Long interregnums are bad because the church has to reorganise twice
Decline is not down to external factors - social change etc. It is down to how we do church.* We can see this because the baptists are growing, the Methodists shrinking in the same social environment.
In our postmodern world, personal testimonies are more valuable than sermons.
There are 3 million people in this country who would try church if someone took them.
90% of people who try a church don't come back.
If a church thinks of itself as friendly, it may be that people already there are so friendly with each other that they ignore any newcomer.
To get a good idea of church attendance, the best way is to make a list of people you think belong.
Clergy numbers have reduced dramatically: 11080 in 1990 - 7770 in 2013
Many more people listen to Radio 1&2 than Radio 3 - our music needs to reflect this.
Don't focus on numbers - focus on quality, and numbers will follow.
* and, of course, nothing works without prayer.
1 Corinthians 3:7-9
"The one who plants and the one who waters really do not matter. It is God who matters, because he makes the plant grow. 8 There is no difference between the man who plants and the man who waters; God will reward each one according to the work he has done. 9 For we are partners working together for God, and you are God's field. You are also God's building."
So what do you think? Comments below please!
It's easy now - you don't need an account or anything complex.
Location:Nottingham
Did you like this one so much it had to go on twice?
ReplyDeleteNot sure I entirely agree with all of these statements. Numerical growth may be necessary for survival (and desirable from an evangelical stand point) but if the people who are attracted by the personal testimonies don't get some good teaching from the front they're going to find it hard to grow spiritually and they'll end up as one of the types of seed that doesn't make it. Or, horrible thought, they'll remain 'toddlers in the faith' and toddlers are hard work! So, although they have an important place, I don't think that testimonies are more important than sermons.
I've removed the duplicate - dodgy Internet connection in my room so didn't think it had posted.
ReplyDeleteOk I suppose I'll have to keep on doing sermons then. Occasionally. But we will have sone testimonies too. Any volunteers ?
All too often I find the church presents itself as a club you can join. You can be 'part of the body' by doing this or that within the church. If the church showed itself to be of value and importance within the world, showing interest in what jobs its people do and seeking to apply itself to 'their' situation rather than applying them to 'its' situation then I think it would be seen as more relevent, more effective, more valuable for 'life'. In Mark 1:21-39 Jesus soon moves out from the confines of the Jewish synagogue to the world outside. If we moved out in our outlook, we would be able to 'fish for people' (Mark 1:16-20) a bit better I reckon.
ReplyDeleteI agree with helen re: sermons v testimonies. we need good teaching so we can grow in understanding and so build up our faith. but testimonies are good too because they help us to get to know the person better - how they tick what they've been through etc- that also builds up our faith when we see that God is active and doing stuff in peoples lives. it also helps to join us together as a family/body and care for one another. i agree there is a danger of us only being friendly with one another and excluding the new comer from our 'clique '.Having experienced that myself its very offputting. we need to grow the people we already have so they start to gossip the gospel -as they say- & encourage their friends to come along.And I TOTALLY agree that we must soak the whole issue with prayer otherwise we'll get nowhere eternally.Unless the LORD builds the house......
ReplyDeleteWho in their right mind would want to give up a Sunday morning with Kirsty Wark in favour of an hour in church with the frozen chosen? I did church for many years, it drew me in and spat me out. Now, Sunday is time for coffee, reading and the discs of Kirsty's guests. Bliss for my post-Christian soul. To paraphrase - my chains came off, my heart was free, I rose, went forth and found time for me. Back to Church Sundays, messy church, fresh expressions, emerging churches etc are all full of the same people who tell us to shut up, put up and pay up!
ReplyDeleteHi Post Christian, welcome to this blog. Thanks for the invite (post, Christian ?)
ReplyDeleteYou would be most welcome at St Peter's even though I personally find the heating is often too hot. No-one is told to shut up to the best of my knowledge. And there is free coffee. The bills are paid mostly by long-standing members. The Fresh Expressions we provide are completely free of charge.
(After the service I like to catch up with the Sunday morning TV I've recorded. )
I'm really sorry you've had a bad experience of church. I have to admit that happens to many people - myself included. There have been times, following a bad experience at church, that it's only been my experience of God that has kept me going. Despite, rather than because of the church. I hope you can find that in your exile.
Thanks for welcome and invite to St Peter's, you never know I might just take you up on it one day. I have an issue with religious experience as a form of justification for God. Empirical evidence for God would be in the form of effect on behaviour and lives of those who go to church.Experience is something of a philosophical and theological minefield but one can't argue with the effects of belief in God. Bertrand Russell rejects experience on the basis that it is impossible to confirm or deny what is happening to someone else. I tend to agree. However, if we look at the fruit belief produces then it might be valid to continue to believe in an all loving God as articulated by the Church. Sadly, there is little evidence of good fruit in the lives of those who attend church today. The problem is not God but those who claim to represent him on earth. "The only thing that can save the world from complete moral collapse is a spiritual revolution. Christianity, by its very nature, demands such a revolution. If Christians would all live up to what they profess to believe, the revolution would happen." (Thomas Merton). Such a revolution might even get a someone like me to go back to church!
ReplyDeleteI'd certainly agree that experience of God is not something that can easily be communicated - it comes down to how much you trust the person telling you about it (as do most things really.)
ReplyDeleteAs for empirical evidence, well according to the survey at http://www.eauk.org/snapshot/upload/21st-Century-Evangelicals-PDF.pdf,
"9 out of 10 evangelicals believe, to some extent, that it’s a Christian’s duty to be involved in activities that beneļ¬ t the local community.
Those who don’t think it’s a Christian’s duty are less likely to
volunteer"
i.e Christians do far more than their fair share of voluntary work.
It is of course difficult to evaluate how well someone is living. All I can say is that I know I am a better person than I would be if I wasn't a Christian. And I suspect the same is true for other people at church (especially so for the new Methodist minister down the road who left the Triads to become a Christian!)
What I can NOT say is that I am a better person than anyone else - that comparison is pretty much impossible to make.
I look forward to the revolution, but it will only happen one person at a time!
One thing's for sure: Any spiritual revolution will begin with people who 'Deny Self' not 'Suit yourself'.
ReplyDeleteMark 8:34